As a product manager considering a move into leadership, I want to understand how to prepare for the move from PM to Director so that I am not caught off guard by the identity shift and can lead with confidence.
What do they never tell you about becoming a product leader?
In this episode, we talk about the parts of moving from PM to Director that catch most people off guard. The quiet loss of being the hero. The awkward shift from working alongside peers to managing them. The moment when shipping features stops being the job and making decisions, saying no, and setting direction becomes the work.
We share real stories about what surprised us, what we got wrong early on, and what actually helped once the role changed. We also break down the difference between Principal and Director paths, what “executive presence” looks like in plain terms, and how to start preparing for leadership while you are still a PM.
If you are thinking about stepping into product leadership and want to know the parts no one puts in the job description, pull up a chair on the porch, listen closely, and learn before you leap.
Introduction and Podcast Overview
[00:00] episode framing - why PM vs Director thinking matters right now
[00:24] leadership context - setting expectations for role and identity shift
Defining Product Management Roles
[01:20] CEO myth - why PMs do not actually have authority
[02:11] decision limits - where PM influence really starts and stops
Product Manager and Director Role Differences
[03:23] altitude analogy - low vs high altitude product thinking
[03:46] horizon shift - short-term execution vs long-term strategy
[05:21] restaurant metaphor - waiter vs operator responsibilities
Transitioning from Product Manager to Director
[08:06] letting go - reduced customer closeness and hero work
[09:26] hero syndrome - why doing too much hurts directors
[10:23] recognition drop - fewer high fives, more responsibility
Leadership Challenges and Lessons Learned
[13:03] managing peers - boundaries change when friends become directs
[14:35] portfolio reality - deciding what does not get funded
[16:30] one-on-ones shift - talking systems, not just features
Director vs Principal Product Manager
[25:41] career fork - IC mastery vs people leadership
[29:18] money myth - similar comp, very different work
[30:17] principal role - scope without people management
Shifting Focus and New Perspectives
[31:10] persona change - users to buyers and executives
[33:16] politics reality - learning to play the game without being toxic
[36:07] motivation shift - finding joy in others’ success
Key Takeaways and Closing Remarks
[37:30] experience matters - no shortcut to leadership readiness
[38:38] incentives check - understanding what your company rewards
[39:45] humility required - growth demands changing how you think
Todd Blaquiere (00:00):
Hey, thanks for listening. Please subscribe to our newsletter at the productporch.com for notifications on the latest episodes and exclusive content. Some of the key factors that differentiate product manager versus director of product management.
Ryan Cantwell (00:12):
Yep.
Todd Blaquiere (00:13):
Are factors that might come up when you're thinking about aircraft.
Ryan Cantwell (00:17):
Okay.
Todd Blaquiere (00:17):
Altitude and Horizon. Oh.
Joe Ghali (00:24):
Welcome to The Product Porch with Ryan Cantwell, Todd Blaquiere, and me, Joe Ghali. Let's put on our thinking caps. [00:00:30] Today, we discussed the difference between product manager thinking and director level thinking. Now settle in folks, because on the product porch, every topic is a product topic.
Ryan Cantwell (00:42):
Joe, your musical taste, we learn about new things all the time. Was it Belinda Carlisle that came up once?
Joe Ghali (00:47):
No, Bonnie Tyler.
Ryan Cantwell (00:50):
Bonnie Tyler. That's
Joe Ghali (00:51):
Right. Yeah. Every once in a while between the creepy dancing chili dog that Todd sends me or The Corn Dog will send me a link to the YouTube [00:01:00] music video for Total Eclipse of the Heart.
Todd Blaquiere (01:03):
Turn it around. Remember I told you what that was actually about? Did you ever look that up? It was about vampires. Yeah. It was about vampires. I was going to be a vampire musical.
Ryan Cantwell (01:11):
A vampire musical, just like in forgetting Sarah Marshall, which by the way, is one of my top three favorite movies. I love forgetting Sarah
Joe Ghali (01:18):
Marshall. It's a very underrated movie. Very underrated moment.
Ryan Cantwell (01:20):
Guys, here we are. And I talk about this all the time, but I want to talk about it with you where I hear ... I'll ask people a question, how do you define product [00:01:30] management? And inevitably someone says CEO of the product. They'll say those words. And I know there's a lot of writings and thought about how that isn't exactly the best way to describe product management because CEO of the product implies authority. And how much authority did you have when you were a product manager?
Todd Blaquiere (01:51):
Very little.
Ryan Cantwell (01:53):
Nine Zilts. Direct authority? Direct authority. Yeah. To make decisions, do exactly [00:02:00] what you wanted to do and-
Todd Blaquiere (02:02):
Little.
Ryan Cantwell (02:02):
Very little.
Joe Ghali (02:03):
Yeah.
Ryan Cantwell (02:03):
Yeah.
Joe Ghali (02:03):
Maybe
Todd Blaquiere (02:04):
How the user story was written, maybe. But how about this? How about this? Compared to the CEO?
Joe Ghali (02:11):
Yes.
Todd Blaquiere (02:12):
Yeah. Zilch. There
Joe Ghali (02:13):
It is. Yeah. I had no ownership on budget. Let me tell you that. I was given a number. You got to work within these numbers for
Ryan Cantwell (02:21):
Budget. And it just goes to show me how hard it is to define the product role. So I'll talk to people all the time who [00:02:30] will say, "My boss told me I need to think more strategically." But then they don't tell them how to do that. So then those that might get direction get the wrong direction. They get on how their boss thinks they should act strategically and then tells their employee, "You should do it this way because that's how I do it. " But that's not right. So you've got different people in an organization, an individual contributor, like a product manager, [00:03:00] their boss, like a director, their boss's boss, like a VP and so on. And the food chain continues. How does the thinking change? Or what markers are we looking for to say this indicates the kind of decisions you make, this kind of thinking that you do, the activities, the behaviors that you need to lean into.
Todd Blaquiere (03:23):
All right, Ryan. So first off, you're 100% right that they're different. Yeah. And I think a metaphor we can use for the factors, [00:03:30] some of the key factors that differentiate by role, product manager versus director of product management are factors that might come up when you're thinking about aircraft.
Ryan Cantwell (03:41):
Okay.
Todd Blaquiere (03:42):
Altitude and horizon.
Ryan Cantwell (03:45):
Okay.
Todd Blaquiere (03:46):
Oh, so those are two major factors. Altitude and horizon. Now, not every aircraft that you get into can go as high or operates the same altitude and the horizon looks different depending on [00:04:00] what aircraft you're piloting. If you consider altitude, the difference between a products manager and director of product management. Actually, even before I say this, let me point out, I think it's important to say I'm not saying a way of thinking is better.
Ryan Cantwell (04:16):
Oh yeah, yeah.
Todd Blaquiere (04:16):
It's not my point here. It's not about hierarchy and better ways of thinking. It's about orientation and context. So you should think appropriately, have the right thinking for your role. And so you think about a product PM thinking, [00:04:30] low altitude, close to the ground. How do I solve this customer problem? What's the right next set of requirements?
Joe Ghali (04:37):
Yeah. How do I prioritize what to work on next?
Todd Blaquiere (04:40):
Right.
Joe Ghali (04:41):
Yeah.
Todd Blaquiere (04:41):
Director of thinking high altitude, systems view, entire ecosystem, portfolios, budgets, right? And so just a different altitude. And then I said horizon. I think time horizon's a big one too. So when you think about horizon, PM, days, [00:05:00] weeks, sprints, maybe as far at most as a quarter, director often thinking about the quarter as a starting place and even up to a year, strategy cycles, things like that.
Ryan Cantwell (05:12):
So at risk of over analogizing, if I can use that as a word. Are you
Todd Blaquiere (05:18):
Going to put a hat on a hat? Here we go. Have a hat. So
Ryan Cantwell (05:21):
That's why I had done this before. Put hats on hats. So the product manager is a waiter. They're not just carrying plates. They're translating the experience [00:05:30] of the person eating at the restaurant. They're listening, they're sensing frustration, they're picking up unmet needs and they're responding to those signals, whether it's back to the kitchen and then trying to improve the experience. They don't choose the ingredients. They don't set the pricing per se. They might have some recommendations, but they're influencing what gets considered. And then the director is more like the restaurant manager or the operator. They're ensuring the whole system [00:06:00] works. Staffing, scheduling, margins, food safety, supplier relations, menu consistency, all of those things. They're not obsessing about whether Table seven wants more lemons in their ice water. They're watching patterns and they are answering questions like, "Are we overspending on a particular ingredient? Do we need another server to help keep the experience high?
(06:26):
Are we confusing customers with a menu that's 75 pages long?" [00:06:30] Those kind of things. So the time horizon, you can see it's bigger instead of looking at dining experiences, trying to optimize for those things. How do you like my hat on a hat?
Joe Ghali (06:41):
You guys, with your analogies, I'm just going to not try on this one because they're not going to be as insightful, but I think I
Todd Blaquiere (06:48):
Get- I just think I want to go back through all the past episodes and find places where I shared a metaphor and then right after Ryan shares a different metaphor. "Oh, okay. Well, I guess my metaphor is not good enough. Let's [00:07:00] go with another metaphor. "No, both of them are really good,
Joe Ghali (07:04):
Well-thought out articulate.
Todd Blaquiere (07:05):
What about people? Who's in the aircraft? Oh no, Ryan's about who's eating at the table. Okay.
Ryan Cantwell (07:12):
I think the last time it was ice cream cones and tops, that was hats on.
Joe Ghali (07:15):
Yeah. Oh my gosh. Okay. So I think I get it, right? It's like the short term versus the long term. That's part of it. It's part of it. But there are so many people out there, so many PMs out there that want to grow into a director role. [00:07:30] What do you have to let go from your PM identity to grow into that direct role? How does one go from a waiter to a head chef? How does one go from a propeller jet- Right, the Turbo Pro. ... to a 717. We're talking about these are massive changes. These are big ... I mean, it may depend on the size of the company, the industry, the products you're working on. And I think a lot of [00:08:00] people would want to know this. How does one go? How do you go from ... Because to me, it sounds drastic.
Todd Blaquiere (08:06):
I think it's important. I still think it's important to play your role. So while I think it's good to understand the different ways of thinking between product manager and director of product management, if you invest too much of your time as a product manager trying to think like a director of product management, you won't be serving in your role. So I'll give you an example. Okay. One of the hardest things [00:08:30] about adjusting to being a director of products management is accepting the fact that you're a little bit more removed from the customer
(08:37):
And accepting that you're not going to visit with them on a daily basis. You're not going to have the same touch points, you're not going to have the same insights, and you will be removed a little bit, especially as you begin to focus more on systems and processes.That's a challenging perspective pivot. But if you're a PM, you're a product manager and you think, [00:09:00] I want to be like a director. I know directors aren't worried about all these customer touchpoints because they're designing the system and I want to influence more of the system design and you're spending your time spending your brain cycles about that. You're thinking about the wrong thing. Make sure you serve in your role. But I like the question you asked about what you have to give up. So if you do move into a director role, I like that question that you asked about, what do you have to let go of?
(09:24):
It's a great question.
Ryan Cantwell (09:26):
I mean, a real story, this was true of me when I [00:09:30] started managing a team at the director level. Todd, you were talking about not to be as close to the customer. I'm going to talk about internal stakeholders. I still had people coming to me. I was a product manager, senior product manager, assuming a management role at this organization. And for me, a guy who likes to be helpful, I found myself in a very sticky situation because I started doing too much. I was having to, okay, [00:10:00] I'm going to keep everybody happy, my employees happy, my stakeholders happy, and also try to think like a director and do the big picture stuff. And it wasn't working. I was not performing well and I had to recognize that, hey, I had to start stakeholders. You don't need to come to me anymore. That's not my
Todd Blaquiere (10:19):
Job. And you know what that is? That's hero syndrome.
Ryan Cantwell (10:23):
Yeah.
Todd Blaquiere (10:23):
That's one of the biggest adjustments. You're not the hero anymore. Right. If you thought you didn't get a lot of high fives and pats on [00:10:30] the back as a product manager, just wait till you're director of product manager. Oh, man.
Ryan Cantwell (10:33):
Yeah. So it was a lesson learned and I had to reset my stakeholder group. I guess that would be like your horizon, Todd. Who was I looking at and interacting with? And I couldn't do all the levels. I had to focus on the group that was more my peers and potentially above and leave it to my team to [00:11:00] support the rest.
Joe Ghali (11:01):
So what I'm hearing you both say is, in so many words, part of moving into that role requires letting go, requires empowerment. It also requires trust and delegation. Yeah, absolutely. You have to have those skills. You have to let go and you have to ... It's like this is where you are really becoming a leader. You have to really empower and let others [00:11:30] make decisions. You have to almost step back and let them make some mistakes so they can learn from it. I think that's probably ... I mean, thinking back to my own experience, it's like you don't want the folks below you to fail, but you're hoping that they watch you, that you lead by example and that once you move on, you've set the standard, you've set the bar that they should follow moving forward.
Ryan Cantwell (11:57):
Yeah. And Joe, you're using words that are [00:12:00] very emotionally charged. How did I feel when these things were happening? Because I mean, honestly, it was a tough lesson learned. I did struggle. I won't be shy about talking about that because I spent a lot of time in more of that individual contributor role growing and developing and being guided and coached at that. And then it was like, all right, now [00:12:30] go do this. And some of the hardest things for me was, I hate to say it, Todd, but it was like, I mean, you shot me. I nailed you, Hero syndrome. I wasn't able to go be in every place, getting the pats on the back and doing all the things. No, I needed my team to do it. And I'll admit that that was a little bit hard. I wanted to be visible because I was so visible before I felt like I was doing lots [00:13:00] of things and I frankly wasn't as much anymore.
Todd Blaquiere (13:03):
And that's the thing too, is as a product manager, you can get a lot of kudos and a lot of attention and appreciation from cross-functional teams from shipping stuff. So you think about, you have a stakeholder who has been suffering with this problem or hearing customers suffer with this problem for so long. They share it with you. You prioritize it, get it on the release plan, you release it, you tell them [00:13:30] you release it. Everyone celebrates you. Yay. And you just seem like a hero because you're just doing things and getting things done that people want it done. One of the hardest adjustments for me to make as I became a director of PM. So when I was a product manager, first off, I was a product manager, the other product manager for my buddies and
(13:52):
We see things leadership does. And at times we're just thinking, "Can't you figure this out? Why can you only fund one thing and not the other thing? Why [00:14:00] are you moving resources so much?" All those problems seem just so simple to solve and leaders are just big old dummies because I would feel like I could back the napkin something and say how we get all these features done that we're trying to do across a portfolio in a suite. Suddenly as a director, I'm sitting in rooms looking at budgets, looking at portfolio budgets, looking at revenue projections, and it's becoming very clear when it's like, this [00:14:30] product honestly doesn't deserve more than two engineers
(14:35):
Or you know what, maybe we should shelve this. And I think a big difference there, this is why you've heard me say it so often to product managers, "Don't tie your value to the product. Don't tie your value to the product. You hear me say that so much." Because as a director, you start making those calls where you're like, "We're not going to do that and we're not going to do this and we're going to shift those resources." And so [00:15:00] all those problems that were really easy to solve when you're a PM suddenly become a lot more challenging when you're a director.
Ryan Cantwell (15:07):
So first of all, I'm jealous that Todd mentioned that and I didn't think of it first because that was tough too. Kind of where you started, Todd, was I had a group of peers and we were friends and then all of a sudden I'm their manager. They still wanted to talk to me like I was their friend, but I knew there were [00:15:30] certain conversations that they were uncomfortable. I had to start drawing boundaries and it changed things and that was tough too.
Joe Ghali (15:40):
So I was just writing this down a little bit, just even thinking about, because there's so many people I know that are growing into a leadership role that want to become a director. And honestly, for me in my career, it was like a carrot that I chased. And I thought it was how many years of experience did I [00:16:00] have, how many products did I manage? Were they successful? I was like, "Well, I should just be a director because I've done it for a long time." I thought it was just
Todd Blaquiere (16:09):
Like,
Joe Ghali (16:09):
It should be a given. And that was in my 20s. I'm like, "I've done this now for five years. Why am I not getting promoted? Why am I not getting that director role?" And I see other people doing it. And I think the folks that got promoted, now that I can go back and think about my own career, what was probably happening [00:16:30] in their one-on-ones with their leaders is they weren't necessarily using their one-on-ones to talk about what their features were doing. They were changing the narrative. They were having discussions with their leader about what's going to happen, help me understand how this ties into everything else that we're doing, what else is happening around us? How does this fit into that? How do we drive to that goal? I think probably if I could go back and talk to my younger self, that was just so eager to get that director [00:17:00] role.
(17:01):
I think one of my pieces of feedback, even just thinking about our conversation just now is I just wasn't having the right conversation with my leader. I was just so myopically focused on the then and now and not thinking about how does this fit into a greater landscape of what we're doing for our customers. I don't know, what do you guys think?
Todd Blaquiere (17:19):
If you're at that stage where you are a product manager and you're ready, you feel like you're ready to take on a director level role, there are certain skills you need to possess. First off, you have to be a leader. You have to be [00:17:30] able to get buy-in across other people, other groups, and get them to follow you. And there is something, I always thought it was fake, but there is something to executive presence. There is something real about being able to speak in a room and have people listen to you and you do need to possess some level of that. And as you go further on in seniority, it becomes that much more important. The next thing is you have to be someone who has strong processes [00:18:00] and can enable processes and practices across teams. Now I'll say that was one thing that I had to learn to care about because as a products manager, I was always a little bit allergic to process.
(18:15):
There's just certain things that I'm just like ...
Ryan Cantwell (18:20):
Allergic to process.
Todd Blaquiere (18:21):
It's true. But the reality is if you are going to be a director, your job, more than what you do, any product [00:18:30] sense or strategy you have, your ability to create structures and practices and align them across teams is going to be really important. And then you begin, that's the other thing there were the paradigm shifts because as a product manager, hey, Joe is great. Joe's crushing it. Ryan's a knucklehead.
Ryan Cantwell (18:47):
He is.
Todd Blaquiere (18:48):
I'm the director of product management. I roll out a new process. Joe's looking and going, "I know Ryan needs to do that because Ryan doesn't know what crap he's doing. Thank goodness Todd put this plan together. Help Ryan out. " But [00:19:00] then he's a little bit frustrated because I don't do it exactly this way. Why do I have to do that? I'm Joe. I'm killing it. But when you're a director and that paradigm shifts, you see why they do that
(19:09):
Because you're working with different stakeholders and you can't have two different systems. Stakeholders, your marketing leader can't come to talk to one PM and they use one documentation style and one process and then talk to another one and use another process. Your stakeholders have to see the same process. And even though you know, I can let Joe go [00:19:30] do whatever he want and he knock it out of the park, he has to adopt the same practices everyone else does for the benefit of the entire organization. And so that was one of the hugest paradigm shifts for me is after a minute, I'm like, "Okay." Because at first I kind of let my team run wild like, "I'm the great leader. Who cares about process?" And then the monkeys were crazy all over the room, the glass breaking everywhere. And I'm like, "Oh shoot, we should put these monkeys back in the cages, maybe set some boundaries." [00:20:00] And I learned that real fast.
(20:03):
So if you want to be a director of product management, you have to know how to define a process and get alignment around that.
Joe Ghali (20:12):
Can I ask you guys, and Ryan, you mentioned it briefly a few minutes ago. Thinking about when you moved into that in your director role, what mistakes stand out to you? Starting with you, what stands out as like, God, I wish I could go back or sorry, gosh, [00:20:30] I wish I could go back and change that decision. I wish I didn't do that. What stands out to you?
Ryan Cantwell (20:36):
Joe, first of all, you missed an opportunity. The correct exclamation would've been "Golly!" Nice. Joe Ghali. "Golly". So one thing I think that where I did make a mistake is getting still remaining overly [00:21:00] tactical. So I wanted to still be aware of, okay, what did you tell the development team and what things are you doing over here? And being the type A perfectionist that I am, I loved knowing all of the details and kind of the things that were happening. And I needed to take a step back, not lean in. I didn't need to know everything. I needed to just see the battlefield, not the individual [00:21:30] wars that were happening, or I should say the battles. I needed to see the war, not the battles sort of thing.
Joe Ghali (21:36):
Todd, how about you?
Todd Blaquiere (21:37):
Well, I mentioned one just a minute ago, right? So I talked about having not enough structure. I think one of the lessons I learned early on is as a director, you have to fill a vacuum sometimes of direction. And what I mean by that is regardless of the level that you're at, if you have directs, they need direction. So [00:22:00] sometimes we feel like, "Hey, I'm a first time manager, I have some product managers reporting to me, I'm going to wait until I get direction from the VP or whoever's above me, or I'm going to wait to the company." When I was at the LA Times, we went through some major leadership shifts and what I learned through those were if there is not clear direction from the very top, I have to make it make sense. And sometimes what that meant, so I built a chart.
(22:27):
The first chart I did for my team on this is I realized [00:22:30] they don't know why what they're doing, they don't know how it's connected to the business
(22:35):
Because we had just gone through another change in strategy, another big shift. And I'm like, no one knows why they're doing what they're doing. They're just moving forward on their roadmaps. And so what I did is I actually put a chart together. I went and I listened to our most recent QBR as a company with the new leadership. They had to mention a couple things they cared about and I put that at the top. And then I went from that and I drew the next layer for our business unit. Okay. Well, then our business [00:23:00] unit, this is how our business unit accomplishes that business objective.
(23:04):
And then from there, I went to the next one. Okay, here's how your product accomplishes that. Here's your role. I went even a step further. Here are the things that you're doing, that your accountabilities that are going to drive success, that's going to move the needle on our department, that's going to move the needle on the business. Now, did I have perfect alignment with my department head at the time? No, I certainly didn't have any direct contact with the leadership team, but that direction [00:23:30] at least gave the teams a clear sense of where to go and was much better than wandering in the wilderness, which is what we'd had been doing for a few months before that.
Joe Ghali (23:39):
Yep. Mine is a really simple mistake. By nature, I'm a people pleaser. I just wanted my team to like me and I was more focused on- Yep, 100%. Oh, that's a good one too. I wanted them to like me. Yeah. I've
Todd Blaquiere (23:50):
Done it too. I've done it
Joe Ghali (23:51):
Too. I wanted them to like me. I wanted to be popular. I didn't want them talking about me behind my back like they did with other leaders. [00:24:00] But I paid the price for that. I paid the price for that dearly. But boy, Todd, I wish I had met you when I was 30, 31 years old, just even mapping out outcomes because man, that would've been so much more impactful. And I think it's like understanding respect. Respect is gained. Respect is earned, not given. I think that was my biggest lesson moving from a individual contributor level into [00:24:30] a director leadership role as a product manager.
Todd Blaquiere (24:33):
You know what's funny about that? So I say this all the time. When you work for me, I tell you from the very first day, I trust you. You have to earn my trust, you got it. If you're worried about whether or not I trust you, you're just going to make a bunch of mistakes and you're going to go slow. We don't have time for that. I trust you, you got it.
Joe Ghali (24:50):
Yep.
Todd Blaquiere (24:50):
One thing I've learned is I believe that's how it should go from leader down. In the other direction, we have to earn trust. Totally. And I'm okay with that.
Joe Ghali (24:59):
Totally.
Todd Blaquiere (24:59):
If you believe [00:25:00] you should walk in the room with your title and then everyone should listen to you, you're making a big mistake.
Joe Ghali (25:05):
Totally.
Todd Blaquiere (25:06):
And you know what's funny about that? You were talking about being liked. I'm the same way. I'm still that way. I know it's probably surprising people, but I care about being liked. Just I want people to like me. I do. I care about people liking me. Just because I don't have friends doesn't mean I don't care about people liking me. But anyway, one thing I've learned is, you know what people like about a leader? You want people to like you as a leader? Here's what they like. They [00:25:30] like knowing where they're going.
Joe Ghali (25:32):
Yeah.
Todd Blaquiere (25:33):
They like someone who trusts them and gives them opportunities to make mistakes. They like someone who gives them feedback and helps them grow.
Joe Ghali (25:41):
Yeah.
Todd Blaquiere (25:41):
But that's the thing. I think sometimes we think being liked, and I think it's okay. I mean respect and like there's some similarities. I think sometimes we think like, I'm only going to be liked if I don't have any boundaries. Actually, you won't be. If as a leader, you're not setting any boundaries. If you're not creating any formula, you're not going to be liked
(26:00):
[00:26:00] Because it feels unsafe. It feels very safe when you report to someone, this is for all of us, right? When you report to someone that has a way of working, that has a goal you're trying to achieve, that's very clear on how you're going to achieve that goal, that gives you feedback when you're off track towards that goal, and then shouts you out when you're doing a good job. Well, shoot, you feel safe, you feel confident. And so that's just the thing that I remember. I think being liked changes, like you were saying earlier, Ryan, [00:26:30] right? When you're just a PM and you're a PM buddies, being liked is the best joke you can tell at the table. When you're a boss, how you're liked is just changes or why you're liked.
Joe Ghali (26:41):
And by the way, I just wrote down my key takeaways, so I'm totally stoked. I'm going to save my little nugget for the end. I'm totally stoked about this. For whatever it's worth, my quick story on that is there was not alignment around technical debt, investment and technical debt.
(26:57):
Our leadership team really wanted [00:27:00] to forge ahead with some, at the time, cutting edge FinTech capabilities. And my engineering manager, JJ's like, "Joe, we can't go forward with what you guys want to do until we spend the next quarter updating our technology stack." It will break us. It will create so much risk for us in the future if we don't do it. And I think that was the first time where, and we haven't really spoken about this, [00:27:30] but I think it's an undertone and that's ... I had to tell a story. I had to say, "Guys, here's the scenario that we're in. We've built this technology on a tech stack from the early 90s at the time. It hasn't been touched. We're trying to build on top of it. It's like building on top of toothpicks and chewing gum. If we continue to invest in this, it's going to break and it's going to hurt our credibility with our stakeholders and our leaders." It's like we have to take a step back, but I'm like, moving forward, we're going to try to do this in bite-sized [00:28:00] chunks versus wasting an entire quarter doing technical debt, which I don't think any one of us want to do.
(28:05):
And I realized at that moment, the art of storytelling with leadership, and I realized that was a big shift in the way that I communicated with leaders. It was more like, I got to tell them the why. I got to set the context behind the decisions that we're making so they understand it and can have empathy. And I think [00:28:30] that was a big shift for me. And I think I took that and I built upon it because they didn't agree with me, but they understood and they respected the decision that I made and they knew it was an unpopular
Todd Blaquiere (28:41):
One. And that's important, right? You learn how to communicate decisions. Totally. You have to be good at communicating the why behind decisions. Totally. And one of the things that I've a place I've over indexed at time is transparency though. There are times I've been too transparent. And so you have to find a way to communicate in a way [00:29:00] that will help and enable your team and empower them without giving away more than you're supposed to at a certain time. I wanted to say one thing here, I think it's important. If people are thinking about being a director of product management, so I'm going to call Booty on something that I see on LinkedIn all the time.
Joe Ghali (29:17):
Yeah.
Todd Blaquiere (29:18):
I'm just going to call Booty on it now. So at this level, you can go director or you can go principal and you can still make about the same amount of money. And that's true. So if your goal [00:29:30] is, I want to get more money, but I don't want to manage people, I don't want to manage process, I don't want to play politics, then director's not for you. You definitely should go the principal path that's better, but there's a limit to how high you can rise with IC. At some point, you have to decide with yourself, if I really want that money, then you're going to need to care about managing people. You're going to need to care about coaching and process and politics. [00:30:00] Six. And all those yucky things that come with the job.
Joe Ghali (30:04):
Yep. Ryan, how would you describe what a principal product manager is to someone versus a director of product? I mean, Todd's kind, you're managing people think that's one part about. What is a principal product manager if you were to explain it?
Ryan Cantwell (30:17):
Yeah, it's the most senior level of individual contributor that a products manager can attain. Usually you start out somewhere like associate product manager,
(30:29):
Then you graduate [00:30:30] to product manager, then senior product manager. And that's usually where things diverge. You have a choice to make. You can start being a manager of product managers as a group product manager and then a director of product management or just straight to director of product management. Most organizations don't have group product managers. Or you could go down the other path, which leads to principal product manager where you are responsible for managing other product managers, but [00:31:00] you are the most senior on the team in terms of the scope of responsibility that you can have and the decision power that you have, those sort of things.
Joe Ghali (31:10):
All right. So I'm going to ask one more question and then we'll go into key takeaways. Ryan, which personas, in your world, when you became a director, which personas did you stop thinking about daily and which new personas entered your world as a director of product?
Ryan Cantwell (31:28):
Wow. [00:31:30] So those that I stopped thinking about daily was, I'm going to go back to my restaurant analogy. The waiters, not the waiters, the individual person at table seven. Instead, I had to think about all the people coming in the restaurant. So it wasn't that I didn't care about them or just stopped thinking about them, but I had to see the bigger picture that are we attracting the right audience into my product [00:32:00] portfolio? In my case, I mean, very specifically, we were trying to be too many things to too many people. How do we get more specific in some cases to attract the right people to be more successful for my product line? So it wasn't necessarily stop and start. It was more shifting focus from more narrow to wide.
Todd Blaquiere (32:24):
Todd, how about you? I mean, the same. The user persona changes. So I'm not thinking about, from the user [00:32:30] persona perspective, I'm not actually thinking about each of the individual product user personas. I spent more time thinking about our buyer, less time thinking about our user. Again, not that I didn't care. I did care. At times, I'd forget maybe a user persona name or something. Focus more time on the buyer persona. And then across stakeholders, that changed as well. So spending much less time with engineers. It's funny because I really love engineers. Every once in a while, I'll still join a sprint ceremony just to [00:33:00] see the engineers and say hi and participate in some of that. I can offer them nothing. I have nothing to give anyone anymore, but I did miss that. So it wasn't ... At the director level, if I do see engineers, it's more the lead engineer from a different product.
(33:16):
I don't get to see all of them, not really working with them anymore. Same with the UX. I'm working with, if there's a lead UX designer, that's probably the only one I'm working with. And then I'm spending more time at more senior level stakeholders. And there [00:33:30] is something to say about politics of just playing more politics. And that's part of the game. And it's one of those things. I remember a friend of mine, we were like 18 or something, and we're at his mom's house and we're chatting about dating. And he goes, "I just don't want to play the game. I don't want to play the game. I don't want to play the dating game." Because we were talking about all the things you got to do to impress girls and go on dates and the way you got to be cool on the first date [00:34:00] and not give away how much you like them and all this kind of stuff.
(34:02):
We're just talking about all the dating stuff. His mom and I having a great conversation about dating. He's like, "I don't want to play the game." And we're both just like, "Well, enjoy being single. It's going to be fun. Your choice is play the game or be alone."
(34:20):
It's the same in product management. It's the same. I mean, honestly, probably honest any career, but especially product management, I know this. Either play politics, learn how to play the politics [00:34:30] or enjoy never advancing in your career. And then one day we'll have to do a full episode on politics because I also don't think that that needs to be a bad word. I certainly am not saying be a brown nosing clown or something or be a shark and throw people. I'm not saying any of that, but I do mean there is a little bit to the game.
Joe Ghali (34:52):
I was thinking about something as you guys were talking about the new personas and you guys have kind of covered the whole spectrum [00:35:00] of across organization, you're dealing now with senior leadership. Todd, you mentioned the buyers. Ryan, you mentioned I'm not as much focused on the person at Table seven, but I'm more focusing on the crowd.
(35:13):
I remember what I really liked was, I feel like as a director, you have more of an outside perspective. You're more aware of what's happening outside your organization and you get to bring that story to the group more holistic.You're [00:35:30] talking about the market went like what's happening in the market or what's happening in the industry and bringing in. I really enjoyed ... I feel like I thrived on that because as someone that likes to be a public speaker and get in front of audiences, I feel like when I got a chance to get in front of our quarterly planning or annual planning and I got to speak to the crowd, I got to share the full story. And I feel like a really good leader and product [00:36:00] is like, you're kind of like getting in front of, you're motivating everyone. You're bringing all these people together.
(36:07):
You're trying to march towards this goal and your excitement and people can feel your passion. And I'm like, yes, okay, now I know I'm in the right spot. I'm in the right role because that's what I really want to enjoy. And I tell people all the time when they want to go into a direct role, I'm like, you have to want to do that.
Todd Blaquiere (36:26):
Yes
Joe Ghali (36:27):
You're kind of like a general leading a brigade. [00:36:30] You're there to motivate everyone, get everyone excited. You're kind of getting everyone to kind of march in the same direction that you're going. You got to want that. That's what good leadership is.
Todd Blaquiere (36:41):
And you should be able to start getting enjoyment out of seeing others have success.
Joe Ghali (36:46):
Exactly. 100%.
Todd Blaquiere (36:50):
Because that's where it's going to come from. Seeing your product manager succeed in their role, coaching them and seeing them grow, that's where your joy is going to come from as a director of product management.
Joe Ghali (37:00):
[00:37:00] Totally. All right.
Todd Blaquiere (37:01):
And you got to build systems and templates.
Joe Ghali (37:05):
No systems and templates. Exactly. All right. So let's start with key takeaways. I'm so proud of myself. I wrote one down. I'm just so stoked, but I'm going to go last. I'm really upset at both of you if one of you takes it from me. Oh, you should go first. Do it first. So my key takeaway is this. Everyone is all about [00:37:30] the instant gratification. People are like, "What book do I need to read? Who do I need to follow on LinkedIn? Who do I need to follow on X? What investments do I need to make?" And I keep telling people, we're telling, the three of us were talking about our own experiences. That's how we got to where we are. We fell down. We fell flat on our face. We can learn from it. We share that experience. To get into [00:38:00] a leadership role, it's time.
(38:03):
It's time. It's life experience. It's kind of like being a parent.
Todd Blaquiere (38:11):
You've
Joe Ghali (38:11):
Just got to go through the journey. You got to have war stories. I feel like that's part of also the journey of becoming a really good leader. You're not just going to be like, "Well, I have this certification or I've read this book or I've read all these podcasts or..." Those are great. You should be doing all that. You should [00:38:30] be investing in your time, but nothing beats experience when it comes to being a product leader. Well said.
Ryan Cantwell (38:38):
I'm going to take this in an interesting direction from my key takeaway. We were talking about how the different levels think and behave and such, but we didn't spend any time talking about incentives. What does the company that you work for actually reward you to do? Because I don't think it's as tidy as [00:39:00] maybe we're leading people to believe. So you also have to understand the ecosystem that you're in and look for conflicts between what you think you know is right and what others are expecting of you. Because when that happens, the nice textbook definition or things we're talking about here might not matter as much. And maybe it's an opportunity for you to [00:39:30] find something new that gives you what you need to develop or put you in a better position to flex the muscles that you want to flex. So kind of just have that bigger awareness too.
(39:44):
Yeah.
Todd Blaquiere (39:45):
And my takeaway is growth requires humility.
(39:50):
When you think about what you believed about the world when you were 15 and then 21 and then 30, [00:40:00] you evolve. I remember when I was 21, 22, I had my roommate was seven years older than me, eight years older than me. You told me, Todd, you really seem to think the world is black and white. As you get older, you're going to learn it's not. It's a lot of gray. And the truth is, as I've gotten older, I've seen the world is a lot more gray than I thought when I was 21. So I say that to say, as we're talking about this, just get ready to be humbled as you grow. Get ready when you make these shifts. If you're not humble [00:40:30] enough to adapt a new way of thinking, if you want to believe the way you're thinking now as a products manager is how you're going to think as a director of products manager.
(40:39):
You're going to struggle. Yeah. You're going to struggle. So get ready to change your mind. I've changed my mind numerous times in my career. That's just part of growth.
Joe Ghali (40:48):
All right, gentlemen. Until next time, stay out of trouble and I'll see you both on the porch. All right. Thanks, fellas. Good night. Yeah, see you guys.
Todd Blaquiere (40:56):
Thank you for joining us on The Product Porch. We release new episodes [00:41:00] every two weeks. You can also find us on LinkedIn for more content. We offer a special thank you to AJ and Jack Blaquiere for the music. The views and opinions expressed by the hosts of this podcast are their own and do not represent nor necessarily reflect those of their employers.